SGMAD Solo Clip - Tone Test

[lll]

Shit's maddening. tweek tweek tweek. there's the tone! (listens the next day) no, need to tweek some more!

I've found, in general, when trying to nail a tone... the best way is to, as much as possible, use the guitar gear they used.

And if you don't have the actual gear, use a worthy substitute.

Once you have the guitar gear down, then you have to deal with the studio gear and the compression, eqing, reverb, panning, mic pre's, tape saturation etc...

It's a lot of work sometimes but it's a damn lot of fun when you get close.

[lll]

330µF fat cap gone
variac down to 76VAC re-biased EL-34's to 60mA
two SM-57s (cap edge 2" and cone 2")

The overall EQ is improved, but there's a lot of "congestion" / "compression" in the mids. Distortion seems a little fuzzy too.

Dunno maybe dip some 500Hz or 700Hz in the EQ.

Maybe dropped too much voltage too?

If it's cascaded in the preamp, I'd revert that back to stock.

I'd be curious to hear the amp with no variac'ing and only the Echoplex pre in front... no EQing either in the DAW... what's that amp sound like base-config?

Start with the basics and add from there if needed.

[lll]

I think the phenomenon revealed here is; what sounds good "in the room" never sounds as good recorded, and then compressed by a hosting site (YouTube, Soundcloud, etc.) and the inverse is also true.. That clip sounded like crap while I was playing it. I really do not like that sort of tone, but when I started listening to the playback in my digital audio workstation, it sounded much better than the previous clips of the same VH song section.

You gotta set things up so you can monitor and play with all the studio FX on.

If you're really mic'ing cabs, isolate them somewhere so you can hardly hear them while you sit at your DAW and play... like you would in a studio.

The trick there is sometimes you can get a slight natural timing delay from when you hit a note, then the speaker produces, then pipes into the mic and then into the DAW. Natural latency if you will.

Anyways, iso that cab, hook the mics up then sit at your DAW, play and monitor the signal in the DAW with all the studio mustard slathered on.

As far as hosting sites and their compression (you're exactly right), try to stick around -14 LUFS. The FabFilter L2 (limiter) plugin you now have can do this. I use it as a monitor only (I have other limiters I use, but it's really good too) set to Transparent so I can see the LUFS... it's the last plugin in the chain on the "2" (stereo master output).

[PLX]

..You gotta set things up so you can monitor and play with all the studio FX on ..

Agreed.

The way I have things setup now, I have the 4x12 cab to my left and I'm sitting in front of my studio monitors. This way I'm hearing a blend of both, but as you already know the live cab is overpowering.

I've learned to correct the timing issues with Waves InPhase plugin.



I started using this due to phase issues with using a live mic combined with a line-level signal out to an audio interface. It's nice because it produces a visual graph of the signals.

What voltage are you running your amp ? Are you dropping it down without re-biasing ? I never tried that due to all the dire warnings from amp techs about cathode stripping and insane levels of tube wear.

LUFS is news to me (I had to go look up what it meant ). I will try that plugin.

[PLX]

To put it all in perspective; here's a long-time MetroAmp tone snob.. a circuit-correct SL100, a certified EVH geetar, variac, etc...

I mean, maybe it's just me... but this sounds like crap.

[PLX]

..I don't think you will ever get a 2203 cacaded preamp to exactly sound like a true plexi preamp IMHO. I'm not sure my plexi tricks will fully translate to a 2203 cascaded circuit, it kind of sounds like a Randy Rhoades type cascade. Ralle tried the cascade many many times and while it has the gain it never sounded of had the feel like a 2 gain stage plexi cranked and variaced... I feel there is just something special with the 2 gaing stage plexi cranked pounding the PI. I cascaded my Ed spec 68 once and I didn't like it at all and went back to stock pronto.

If it is 3 gain stages you shouldn't need the GE10 , EPPRE's and the Schaffer. Unless you are willing to convert it to a full on plexi you may chase your tail.
My Ed spec 68 is the stock two gain stage preamp and so is Jim Gaustad's amp...just sayin ..

I dunno.

Circuitry-wise, both amps are identical from V2 to the speaker jack, with the exception of the pre-phase inverter master on the 2203/2204. The difference is in how the front end is configured.

On a 1987/1959 each half of V1 is its own channel. One half is the 'Normal' channel while the other half is the 'Bright' channel. The outputs of the two channels are passively "mixed" together right after their respective volume pots.

On a 2203/2204 both halves of V1 are cascaded (i.e. 1 gain stage output feeds the input of the next gain stage). There is a breaking point between them at the Low input jack. On the High input jack your signal is going through both halves of V1 whereas on the Low input jack your signal only goes through half of V1.


I'm just an amateur hack at this amp tech stuff, but I'll try anything to learn something and try to get a better feel & tone out of an amp.

All things considered; my next experiment with this is to:

Solder a 100µF cap across the existing 25µF for a "fat cap" value of 125µF

Use the "LOW SENSITVITY" input jack instead of the "HIGH"

Dial the "PRE AMP VOLUME" knob down to between zero and 1

Bias the power tubes at 115VAC, then drop the variac down to 68VAC, and try the amp without re-biasing


Based on the comments from LLL, I'm gonna stop live mic'ing the cabinet, and use the line-out from my reactive load box into my audio interface to drive impulse responses of cab/mic sims.

There is no way I can sit in a 10' x 11' room with a 100W amp with the master volume knob on 10.. and that's what will be required to run this amp in "plexi" mode.

[harddriver]

There is no way I can sit in a 10' x 11' room with a 100W amp with the master volume knob on 10.. and that's what will be required to run this amp in "plexi" mode.

Yeah I fully understand about the volume thing, my amp room isn't huge and even with two pulled power tubes, Rivera Rockcrusher, variaced to 70-80 VAC it can still fairly loud I won't claim its a "loud TV volume" because it isn't. It's comfortably tolerable compared to playing with a live band.

Your'e definitely not a hack...you've been at this as long as I have been. Your electronic build skills shows your're not. If you really really want true Ed tone I have to say a blasting 2 gain stage plexi circuit is what is needed. The cascaded circuit is not pummeling the PI maybe when it is cranked to degree. If you decide to retain the cascade you will have to be satisfied with close IMHO.

You have to remember if Ed was variacing down to the 70VAC range that would be why he needed to reamp with the Fender Bandmaster and other Marshall Superleads as you see onstage in the first leg of the 78 tour, Japan and the later leg of the 78 tour like at Selland arena. Also as he started playing bigger arenas he could crank the plexi's to get what he wanted and sheer volume control became less of an issue live but I would imagine some volume control was somewhat needed in the studio.

I've looked at your amp circuit pic, it this were my amp here's what I would. I you want to keep the cascade I would change it to a RT mod cascade that uses a Post Phase Inverter MV ala Lar/Mar from Metro. It is most plexi sounding of the cascade desgin that I have found and I did it to my 72 Marshall and it retains everything I like about my 68. I can send you the layouts of it if you wish. If you like the cascade setup you have here's what I would try... I also have layouts of the old Ralle cascade if you want them.

Is the 470K/500pf and 470K still invidual mixers for each channel or did you change it to a voltage divider ala 2203?

replace the Xicon box .022uf bax cap with a synergy Mustard
Replace the Sang/generic black Silver micas with either RS/Lemco mica 560pf or Brown 1980's NOS CDE silver micas on the tonestack and mixer cap
I can't remember what but Larry said they have issues later in life a generate noise or DC something along those lines.
I would replace the PI fizzy cap with a 47pf Lemco dogbone you can still get them from valvestorm and I think he has tan/orange CDE 560pf caps as well.
Install an actual Synergy .68uf cap on V2A regardless of what fat cap you decide to go with, it just makes a difference IMHO and Dave Friedman thinks so too. I have a .68 NOS mustard and a 25uf on my 68 Ed spec you still get some tonal effect of the .68uf while the fat cap passes more gain, it weird but there is a difference.


I can mail you two NOS CDE 560pf if you want them. Lotsa roads regarding Ed lore and I've driven alot of miles on them as well as you PLX!

I know your time if taken up with the AH-50 build so what I suggested may not be feasible. If you want any of those layouts hit me up.

[harddriver]

The overall EQ is improved, but there's a lot of "congestion" / "compression" in the mids. Distortion seems a little fuzzy too.

Dunno maybe dip some 500Hz or 700Hz in the EQ.

Maybe dropped too much voltage too?

If it's cascaded in the preamp, I'd revert that back to stock.

I'd be curious to hear the amp with no variac'ing and only the Echoplex pre in front... no EQing either in the DAW... what's that amp sound like base-config?

Start with the basics and add from there if needed.

I concur with III's analysis.

[PLX]

I've looked at your amp circuit pic, it this were my amp here's what I would. I you want to keep the cascade I would change it to a RT mod cascade that uses a Post Phase Inverter MV ala Lar/Mar from Metro.

That's what those 2 unused pots are at the end of the panel. I had that PPIMV in there for years. That circuit is straight outta the book "The Ultimate Tone" by Kevin O'Conner (1995) I always resented those 2 guys trying to "name it & claim it", because all they did was add the safety resistors wired across the dual pot. I've heard it said that Ken Fischer had done it before TUT book was published.

I can mail you two if you want them. Lotsa roads regarding Ed lore and I've driven alot of miles on them as well as you PLX!

I know your time if taken up with the AH-50 build so what I suggested may not be feasible. If you want any of those layouts hit me up.

I'm always trying to learn something with this tube amp stuff. I'll PM you my mailing address. Any help would be appreciated

I'm gonna make the changes to that amp I listed above, and then focus on finishing the Friedman BE-50 clone.

[lll]

What voltage are you running your amp ? Are you dropping it down without re-biasing ? I never tried that due to all the dire warnings from amp techs about cathode stripping and insane levels of tube wear.

(edit)Some years ago, I was running a variac (then biased powertubes after dropping to 100V). Ran 100V, because anymore than that and the amp collapsed into mush.

I had to swap out the feedback resistor to be able to bias in 70% dis. range when dropping voltage

I heard and experienced the effect variac has.

About maybe 4 years ago I put everything back to stock. Mainly because my amp isn't just an EVH amp; I play so many other things.

So yeah, it's stock now. But I do think that having the tube rectifier in there gives it a little more squish than SS rect.

LUFS is news to me (I had to go look up what it meant ). I will try that plugin.

I didn't know what LUFS was until maybe 3 years ago when I started doing full mixes to showcase guitar tone/playing, instead of just the guitar.

I was wondering why my clips sounded over compressed and shitty. Then I found out every streaming service has their own compression and loudness they add to your stuff... and found about LUFS.