Ed's Pickup In The Frankie

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Ed's Pickup In The Frankie

Post by PLX »

So, I'm re-watching the "Tone Talk" from last December with Jim Gaustad.

Jim's talking about the Jalen FW pickup and how he thinks that spec/wind of pickup was in the Frankie before VH2 was recorded.

His reasoning is that, by all accounts the Boss GE-10 was gone from the signal chain for the '79 tour.


linked at exactly where he makes the case for the re-wound pickup theory:



So, he's saying the first example of that spec that he saw came out of a "celebrity guitar" and was given to him by a tech in a music store. He took it apart and measured the coils windings. Lo and behold, he says the spec is almost identical to the prototype JB's that Seymour wound (over-wound) for celebrity clients in the mid to late 70's.
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Re: Ed's Pickup In The Frankie

Post by lll »

I'm convinced the 1st album was either:

1) MM1300 during recording, then off to Seymour to "hey here's a PAF - can you make it sound like my MM1300 but keep it looking like a PAF?" i.e. SH-5 Custom

or

2) off to Seymour to "hey here's a PAF - can you make it sound like my MM1300 but keep it looking like a PAF?" i.e. SH-5 Custom... during recording

addendum:

Why would Ed go to Seymour to change his PAF guts into a MM1300?

To hide what he was using. Remember, Ed used to tap with his back to the audience... supposedly other band members told him to not give away his secrets.

The MM1300 IIRC has all hex pole pieces (it's a DiM SD clone) so, easy for the "tone ripoff guitarist" (watching Eddie on stage) to spot.

Take an old PAF, add more winds, slap in a small ceramic mag (better cleans), and you can tell people who ask you what pickup you're using, "oh, I use an old PAF" (and he did tell people that)...

...and the SH-5 Custom is born in the year 1979 as a regular pickup offering to the public (the only pickup that had the "VAN HALEN" name in a (magazine) advertisement; albeit briefly, because Ed saw it and complained - hence it has provenance). The official SD line for the SH-5 Custom is "PAF on steroids".

Remember, Seymour worked for Mighty Mite before he ventured on his own...

The threads all interconnect. The pieces all fit.
Last edited by lll on Sat Oct 01, 2022 4:59 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Ed's Pickup In The Frankie

Post by PLX »

lll wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:26 am I'm convinced the 1st album was either:

1) MM1300 during recording, then off to Seymour to "hey here's a PAF - can you make it sound like my MM1300 but keep it looking like a PAF?" i.e. SH-5 Custom

or

2) off to Seymour to "hey here's a PAF - can you make it sound like my MM1300 but keep it looking like a PAF?" i.e. SH-5 Custom... during recording
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Re: Ed's Pickup In The Frankie

Post by lll »

PLX wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 1:41 am
For 1st album, it's all about the ceramic magnet zing and plenty of drive from the pickup.

That tone sounds very close.
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Re: Ed's Pickup In The Frankie

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lll wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:26 am Why would Ed go to Seymour to change his PAF guts into a MM1300?

To hide what he was using. Remember, Ed used to tap with his back to the audience... supposedly other band members told him to not give away his secrets.

The MM1300 IIRC has all hex pole pieces (it's a DiM SD clone) so, easy for the "tone ripoff guitarist" (watching Eddie on stage) to spot.

Take an old PAF, add more winds, slap in a small ceramic mag (better cleans), and you can tell people who ask you what pickup you're using, "oh, I use an old PAF" (and he did tell people that)...

...and the SH-5 Custom is born in the year 1979 as a regular pickup offering to the public (the only pickup that had the "VAN HALEN" name in a (magazine) advertisement; albeit briefly, because Ed saw it and complained - hence it has provenance). The official SD line for the SH-5 Custom is "PAF on steroids".

Remember, Seymour worked for Mighty Mite before he ventured on his own...

The threads all interconnect. The pieces all fit.
After using this 15.6kΩ A5 magnet humbucker for a couple of weeks now, I'm starting to rethink the whole "PAF on VH1" thing..

Even using all the "magic pedals"... 2 EP-Preamps, Shaffer Vega preamp, BOSS GE-10, with a PAF the tone is still not there.

I'm in the camp now where Ed used a high output pickup from the first record onwards.. 13k, 14k, 15k, 16k.. whatever. It was not 8~9kΩ PAF style output.
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Re: Ed's Pickup In The Frankie

Post by harddriver »

PLX wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 1:47 pm
lll wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:26 am Why would Ed go to Seymour to change his PAF guts into a MM1300?

To hide what he was using. Remember, Ed used to tap with his back to the audience... supposedly other band members told him to not give away his secrets.

The MM1300 IIRC has all hex pole pieces (it's a DiM SD clone) so, easy for the "tone ripoff guitarist" (watching Eddie on stage) to spot.

Take an old PAF, add more winds, slap in a small ceramic mag (better cleans), and you can tell people who ask you what pickup you're using, "oh, I use an old PAF" (and he did tell people that)...

...and the SH-5 Custom is born in the year 1979 as a regular pickup offering to the public (the only pickup that had the "VAN HALEN" name in a (magazine) advertisement; albeit briefly, because Ed saw it and complained - hence it has provenance). The official SD line for the SH-5 Custom is "PAF on steroids".

Remember, Seymour worked for Mighty Mite before he ventured on his own...

The threads all interconnect. The pieces all fit.
After using this 15.6kΩ A5 magnet humbucker for a couple of weeks now, I'm starting to rethink the whole "PAF on VH1" thing..

Even using all the "magic pedals"... 2 EP-Preamps, Shaffer Vega preamp, BOSS GE-10, with a PAF the tone is still not there.

I'm in the camp now where Ed used a high output pickup from the first record onwards.. 13k, 14k, 15k, 16k.. whatever. It was not 8~9kΩ PAF style output.
I posted the Ossie Ahsen pickup shootout last year PLX.... :roll: Where ya been? ;)

Might Mite also made a 13K Super Stud 13K pickup that had all slug pole pieces. I will muddy the waters further and say a Mighty Mite 1400 which is 9K(mine measures 9.9K is very PAF like but with the same balls and drive as the 1300(13K) pickup. I have a 1300 but I have been so pleased with my 1400 it's still in the package. ;) Readily available high output pickups in 1977 were the Dimarzio and Mighty Mite.....use your own deductive reasoning there.

Now I still think the PAF may have played a part somewhere otherwise Gaustad would not be able to get close to VH1 tone with those 7.8K-8.5K PAF pickups. But I really hear that ceramic almost fuzz distortion that rides on the notes with the MM pickups...for VH1 and the VH1 tour. Ed also may have swapped different pickups during the tour to see what he liked better or if his mood changed...who knows...

For the 78 tour he was using the two echoplexes, MXR 6 band prior to the Japan leg of the tour and then the Boss GE-10. If you play hard and dig in the PAF can work my 78 Model can do VH1 ok but it's not as raunchy as my Might Mite 1400...which is what I hear on VH1.

VHII is warmer and that Might Mite grind is gone. Is it a 9K PAF rewind or the 15.5K JB offset wind? Who knows but Seymour was rewinding PAF pickups for celebrity players in 78-79 according to Gaustad and the timeline could fit.

For the time being I'm still in the camp the super high output pickups cam into play after VHII but it's all still open for discussion and revision at any time....... :lol:

OH THE LORE.......................It's fun isn't it! :lol:
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Re: Ed's Pickup In The Frankie

Post by PLX »

Randy Zacuto, founder of Mighty Mite hired Seymour Duncan in the mid 1970s to design and work on Mighty Mite pickups.

Seymour started advertising rewinds in late 1977/ early 1978 and then started making his own pickups in late 1978.

Ed's black PAF starts appearing in photos from very late 1977/ early 1978 around the same time Seymour Duncan started advertising rewinds and it looks like Ed's black PAF is one of the pickups rewound by Seymour Duncan.

Ed in Young Guitar - June 1978 "Like the other guitars, I took it to a pro in Santa Barbara and had the pickup rewound. So it is custom-made and gives me an original sound."

Ed in Guitar Player Magazine - December 29 1979 "..and a guy named Seymour Duncan, I got pissed at him too. He called me up and said, "Can we use your name for a special pickup?" And I said no. Next time I pick up Guitar Player magazine, there's a special Van Halen model customized Duncan pickup. I called him up and said, "What the hell's goin' on?" So he stopped finally."

Seymour Duncan - Santa Barbara Independent Thu Jul 07, 2011 - “It was the Van Halen time,” he said. “I was doing a lot of oddball things for Eddie [Van Halen]. He wouldn’t tell anybody what he had in his guitars, and he was telling people that he was winding his own pickups. But he wasn’t.” If Duncan remembers correctly, Van Halen opted for the JB model pickup, the one he first made for Beck way back when. “To this day, it’s our biggest-selling pickup of all time,” said Duncan. “I can’t comprehend how many we’ve made. It’s probably over 500,000 that we’ve made by now. It’s an amazing amount.”
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Re: Ed's Pickup In The Frankie

Post by PLX »

There was a guy on the old MetroAmp forum that went by "Ted B" and he seemed pretty knowledgeable about pickups. Going back and reading some of his posts now seem fortuitous.. and almost spooky accurate.

"One thing I can say without reservation is that Ed's double black PAF removed from his early '60s ES-335, that was presumably rewound by Duncan circa '78, was absolutely equipped with a late PAF A5 magnet. One might consider the possibility that wherever that old black butyrate bobbin is present, at least for a period of time, that 2.371" long, .491" wide, and .121" thick, sand cast 'short' A5 PAF magnet may have remained in it."

________________________________

"By '61, all PAF magnets had been standardized to that particular A5 piece. Before that, they were A2 (mostly), A3, A4, and A5. Anything in double black post 1960 will be the late style, all of which will have the slightly shorter standardized A5 magnet. AFAIK, that magnet remained consistent into the T-top period, at least through the '60s and possibly later. It has been noted however that at least some of the T-top era A5 magnets showed weaker gauss than expected, I don't know why. If I had a T-top era magnet to use, I'd just have it fully recharged for good measure.

About the Bareknuckle VH2, it has the correct frame and frame material, correct butyrate bobbins that match the dimensions of original PAFs, correct size and type A5 magnet, correct type polepieces, and a ~9.0k asymmetrical wind. If one were going to take a late PAF and repair/rewind it to be hotter, he'd more than likely end up with something exactly like that."


_______________________________

The other thing I would reiterate is that in Seymour's first iteration of the "JB", it was not a manufactured pickup available for sale.. Seymour offered a "JB wind" to celebrity clients.

In other words, he would take your donor pickup (whatever that might be) and he would re-wind/overwind it to this "spec".

According to one of many retellings from Seymour, Ed approached him and asked for "the JB wind" on one of his pickups.

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Re: Ed's Pickup In The Frankie

Post by PLX »

More Ted Talks..

"The saga probably originates when Ed lifts a PAF out of his original early '60s ES-335 (the one he 'ruined'). FWIW, PAFs after early '60 are double black, so that fits. He probably screws it up royally with his rewinding experiments (as well as a couple of DSDs and MMs), seeks Seymour's help in fixing it, and the two talk about what Ed wants out of it. Ed ends up with something like what would later become a Duncan Custom, and records VH1 with it. Sometime shortly thereafter, he becomes dissatisfied (imagine that), and goes back to Seymour, where the old PAF pickup is rewound again (or maybe not) but definitely gets a different magnet (A2). This is partly responsible for the change in Ed's sound. Realizing that Ed is fast becoming a star, Seymour tries to make a buck on his name without permission (SH-5), and the relationship is severed.

Years later, Seymour again capitalizes on the situation, knowing there is a large contingent that thinks Ed's early sound is canned inside a magic pickup. The Duncan Custom is the closest offering to the VH1 pickup, but it already exists. To get around this problem, Seymour releases a later version of what Ed used (or an interpretation of it), names it the "E.V.H.", then later the "'78", and jacks up the price by $100 over a Duncan Custom for no material reason. And while this represents something Ed probably used for at least a period of time, it isn't the VH1 pickup.

This theory is probably as realistic as any. It seems that both Ed and Seymour may be chronologically challenged, and Ed likewise seems rarely ever happy with something for very long before he wants to change it."
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Re: Ed's Pickup In The Frankie

Post by lll »

PLX wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 5:22 pm There was a guy on the old MetroAmp forum that went by "Ted B" and he seemed pretty knowledgeable about pickups. Going back and reading some of his posts now seem fortuitous.. and almost spooky accurate.
Yep I remember him - Ted Breaux from Louisiana. Liked to drink absinthe.
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