Popular Gain Staging Gear Observations

[lll]

This is in reference to the recent discussion between PLX, etc about PAF-type output pickups and the suggestions to try 13-14K output instead for certain things.

Here's what I've noticed from my studies in tone from the big boys (primarily Marshall flavor amps); these were (are) popular setups with their rigs to get the right amount of gain needed to play the stuff they did. Granted, this is no hard and fast rulebook (and some pieces of gear may be arguable as to whether they used it or not), but a general guide.

Roughly in order of gain, with the first being the least amount.. plus examples of who used it

1) PAF into Marshall Plexi (the classic; Kossoff, Cream Clapton etc)
2) DiM Super Distortion into Marshall (Ace Frehley)
3) T-tops into Marshall (UFO Schenker)
4) DiM Super Distortion into MXR 6 band EQ into Marshall (Boston)
5) SH-5 into '68 Marshall Plexi (v2 .68uf, etc) (EVH)
6) PAFish Les Paul into MXR 10 band EQ into MXR Dist+ into Marshall (Randy Rhoads)
7) DiM Super Distortion into MXR 10 band EQ into Marshall (Iron Maiden)
8) DiM X2N into BOSS SD-1 into Marshall JCM800 (Vivian Campbell DIO)
9) JB into OD-1 into Marshall (Jake E Lee)
10) SH-6 into Tubescreamer into Marshall (George Lynch)
11) JB into Furman PQ-3 (800Hz boost) into Marshall (Warren DeMartini)
12) SH-5 into BOSS BF-2 (trick) into BOSS OD-1 into Marshall (Ronni LeTekro)
13) X500XL into RAT into ADA MP1 (Pornografitti Nuno)

As you can see, to achieve a certain level of hard rock crunch and sustain using a PAFish pickup (Rhoads is the lone example here), you need help with a stompbox (or two in his case). All the other guys are using hotter-than-PAF pickups (~14K) into the amp, or even adding a stompbox to the mix as well (although they were using it more as a cleanish boost with the level up and the dist/od down).

The point being, you're not going to get, say, Vivian Campbell DIO era crunch and sustain using a PAFish into a typical Marshall of the time period; it just ain't gonna happen. You're going to not only need to use a hotter pickup, but also need some help with a stompbox for boosting it even further.

[PLX]

This is in reference to the recent discussion between PLX, etc about PAF-type output pickups and the suggestions to try 13-14K output instead for certain things.

Here's what I've noticed from my studies in tone from the big boys (primarily Marshall flavor amps); these were (are) popular setups with their rigs to get the right amount of gain needed to play the stuff they did. Granted, this is no hard and fast rulebook (and some pieces of gear may be arguable as to whether they used it or not), but a general guide.

Roughly in order of gain, with the first being the least amount.. plus examples of who used it

1) PAF into Marshall Plexi (the classic; Kossoff, Cream Clapton etc)
2) DiM Super Distortion into Marshall (Ace Frehley)
3) T-tops into Marshall (UFO Schenker)
4) DiM Super Distortion into MXR 6 band EQ into Marshall (Boston)
5) SH-5 into '68 Marshall Plexi (v2 .68uf, etc) (EVH)
6) PAFish Les Paul into MXR 10 band EQ into MXR Dist+ into Marshall (Randy Rhoads)
7) DiM Super Distortion into MXR 10 band EQ into Marshall (Iron Maiden)
8) DiM X2N into BOSS SD-1 into Marshall JCM800 (Vivian Campbell DIO)
9) JB into OD-1 into Marshall (Jake E Lee)
10) SH-6 into Tubescreamer into Marshall (George Lynch)
11) JB into Furman PQ-3 (800Hz boost) into Marshall (Warren DeMartini)
12) SH-5 into BOSS BF-2 (trick) into BOSS OD-1 into Marshall (Ronni LeTekro)
13) X500XL into RAT into ADA MP1 (Pornografitti Nuno)

As you can see, to achieve a certain level of hard rock crunch and sustain using a PAFish pickup (Rhoads is the lone example here), you need help with a stompbox (or two in his case). All the other guys are using hotter-than-PAF pickups (~14K) into the amp, or even adding a stompbox to the mix as well (although they were using it more as a cleanish boost with the level up and the dist/od down).

The point being, you're not going to get, say, Vivian Campbell DIO era crunch and sustain using a PAFish into a typical Marshall of the time period; it just ain't gonna happen. You're going to not only need to use a hotter pickup, but also need some help with a stompbox for boosting it even further.

This all agrees with what I've been told by Jeff @ HighOrder Pickups as well as my own personal observations over time.

Back in the late 80's ~ early 90's when I started gigging, no one was playing thru a small pedalboard into a tube amp (rock players in bars & clubs).

Everyone was using rack gear into power amps, MIDI floor controllers, and 14~15kΩ pickups. Everyone's tone sounded like shit, but no one cared because it wasn't about "tone". It was about being able to switch from patch to patch and get over-the-top distortion or chorusy cleans echo type sounds at the click of a footswitch.

Now I'm back to running a JCM-800 clone and trying to nail iconic players' tones & signal chains, just for my own amusement. I no longer need to be able to switch from extremely different patches during a live performance. I'm looking for a great "core" tone to just play and write my own music.

Since my gear has completely changed since those days, what worked then does not necessarily work now.

I've sold my modeling amps, MIDI crap, rack gear.. so it's tabula rasa.

[RockyStar]

While I agree with everything said in this thread the ultimate key (for me) is finding my own voice through whatever equipment and being comfortable with the sound to be happy and inspired enough by the sound to be inspired to create.

[harddriver]

One caveat on the Schenker tone he use the cracked wah to boost the mids giving his tone more attack and bite sometime on sometimes off so it was kinda like a treble booster of the time. Michael uses a TS-9 OD now, I think he has since at least the 90's.

Good writeup lll.............good insights.

[PLX]

While I agree with everything said in this thread the ultimate key (for me) is finding my own voice through whatever equipment and being comfortable with the sound to be happy and inspired enough by the sound to be inspired to create.

This has always been how I view this tone chase business..

You start off as a kid going into a music store looking for an amp & guitar, the sales guy asks you, "What kind of tone are you going for ?"

You can't answer with, "My tone." That doesn't even make any sense. So you have to name some artists they have heard of in order to get any direction or help.

That's how this whole thing gets started.

[lll]

I should add that "nowadays" the amps available have so much gain on tap that pedals (or even hot pickups) aren't even required.

That goes for real amps as well as plugins.

For example, I did the Whitesnake "Crying In The Rain" Sykes solo using an SD SH-55 Seth Lover bridge (straight up PAF) into a software amp (UAD Suhr SE-100)... didn't need any pedals. Sykes of course was using Gibson Dirty Fingers into a stereo (chorused) Mesa Boogie III Coliseum setup at the time of the recording... and quad-tracking the rhythms ("double doubling").

[RockyStar]

While I agree with everything said in this thread the ultimate key (for me) is finding my own voice through whatever equipment and being comfortable with the sound to be happy and inspired enough by the sound to be inspired to create.

This has always been how I view this tone chase business..

You start off as a kid going into a music store looking for an amp & guitar, the sales guy asks you, "What kind of tone are you going for ?"

You can't answer with, "My tone." That doesn't even make any sense. So you have to name some artists they have heard of in order to get any direction or help.

That's how this whole thing gets started.

True...

BUT, I also don't think we have "our tone" when we initially begin playing. I also feel some people who have played all their life may not have their own sonic voice. Doesn't mean they aren't good players or have bad tone. It just means they might not have developed their own tonal voice. I believe it takes time and experience to develop. I also think there are certain things gear wise that simply work for us or don't work for us. Maybe it is sound, maybe it is feel but we know good or bad when we experience it. It can even sound good but not feel right so therefore it is wrong. I have experienced this several times. Ultimately, each step we take on our path will hopefully bring us closer to being inspired and discovering our musical voice. YMMV

[RockyStar]

I should add that "nowadays" the amps available have so much gain on tap that pedals (or even hot pickups) aren't even required.

That goes for real amps as well as plugins.

For example, I did the Whitesnake "Crying In The Rain" Sykes solo using an SD SH-55 Seth Lover bridge (straight up PAF) into a software amp (UAD Suhr SE-100)... didn't need any pedals. Sykes of course was using Gibson Dirty Fingers into a stereo (chorused) Mesa Boogie III Coliseum setup at the time of the recording... and quad-tracking the rhythms ("double doubling").

True!

I would love (or at least I think I would) to hav some of those great older records made again with today's gear. Imagine concerts with the great PA's of today. Imagine the great thrash bands with todays amps and such. That would be cool (at least it would be in my mind).

[PLX]

I should add that "nowadays" the amps available have so much gain on tap that pedals (or even hot pickups) aren't even required.

That goes for real amps as well as plugins.

For example, I did the Whitesnake "Crying In The Rain" Sykes solo using an SD SH-55 Seth Lover bridge (straight up PAF) into a software amp (UAD Suhr SE-100)... didn't need any pedals. Sykes of course was using Gibson Dirty Fingers into a stereo (chorused) Mesa Boogie III Coliseum setup at the time of the recording... and quad-tracking the rhythms ("double doubling").

This is true.

For me the pedals I'm using now are for colorization and filtering.. not for gain so much.